ELD-Match, Noslers 185-gr. This friction-free bullet jump allows it to break inertia more easily. This is not a rifle you want to weave through dog-hair timber. We're doing break in on it tomorrow. He is having adg make brass for him, its head stamped and the neck diameter and length are correct for his design, will still need to be fire formed. Its designed to send long, sleek, high B.C. That results in performance like this: Whoa grandma! You go long. I didnt have any problems finding reloading supplies. And thats part of the reason 7mms are so popular. The 28 is not going to be but about 25-50 FPS faster and it makes little difference. So Im going through this same thing Are you wanting to run a shorter barrel? Specifically, the larger diameter .284 bullets used by those 7mm cartridges have about 5% more frontal surface area (also known as cross sectional area) than the .277 bullets used by the 6.8 Western (.0633 vs .0603 square inches). Trustpilot. Trustpilot. Well use a 10-inch diameter target zone for computing Maximum Point Blank Range. With 165gr bullets the 300 has a fair amount of recoil with a 150gr it feels more like a 30/06. Many find them, like the 280ai, to be a great compromise between ballistics and recoil. Some of these new cartridges are appealing, I dont think Ill change however. This rings home with me. It is intended for long-range shooting due to its ability to utilize high BC bullets, and is also uniquely suited for hunting large animals such as elk. Once you get some freebore to seat the long, heavy bullets out, it really shines. With a 160 grain bullet the Remington figures are 2960 fps and 3112 ft. lbs. Mag. The 7max performance that Rich advertises is somewhat inflated and HOT loadings. Should be 7.5lbs scoped or so. I also use and like my .284 Win on a long action. In the past, running 284 Win (reaching back to Raton, 2013), I would have said that (for me at least) a rechamber would be in order for a straight 284 around the 2000 round mark. Im in the market to start a new build. I'm currently hunting with a 7rm shooting 168 Berger vlds at 3000 fps. Arbeidstid: 08.00-16.00mandag til fredagVi vil svare deg innen 48-72 timer. If you're only going to be shooting 160's, I think the regular 7 Rem Mag would definitely be a more economical choice. Nothing to call home about, but its solid for any North American game to 7 or 800 yards based on about any standard metric. The Nosler Reloading Guide 9 lists a 175-gr. This precision does not mean the 7mm PRC is a long range target round only. ADG 300 . Since then weve met eight or ten other 7mms, but none has knocked the old 7 Rem Mag from its perch. Most hunters who resist target practice can get a lifetime of good accuracy out of these 7mms. For the best experience on our site, be sure to turn on Javascript in your browser. Both were introduced in 2001. loads beautifully, delivering them sub-MOA out to 1,500 yards, then a mile just to say I did it. Buy Now. If youre going to tackle an elk or mule deer with a 180-grain bullet at around 2,900 fps, the 7mm version in that bullet weight will shoot flatter, drift less, and put more energy on target than the .308 version. Snipers Hide is a community of Snipers of all kinds, focusing on long range shooting, accuracy, and ballistics. burning 61 grains Reloder 22, 28 Nosler, 3,200 fps from 26 bl., 88-grs. The 28 Nosler uses .284 diameter bullets while the 300 Win Mag uses larger .308 bullets. Jan 1, 2018 2,001 4,006 51 Muscle Shoals, Alabama. I also see the counter that belted cases are reloaded just like non belted and it is a non issue. I think if I was buying a hunting rifle, and just wanted to keep a few high quality boxes of factory ammo around, the I would go 7Rm. As the name suggests, this round is aimed squarely at accurate, long range performance. We have killed over a half dozen deer over 850 yards with the 195 berger so i know it performs well on game (never lost a deer with the 195 even with one having poor shot placement). Im thinking Id run Berger 168 or 180 in SAUM and 140 or 156 in PRC. Assuming that would be as illogical as assuming the 30-06 Springfield, 308 Winchester, and 223 Remington are strictly military cartridges. I have a 28 nosler, and love it, but I wanted the extra 200 FPS from hand . I feel I could easily shoot 180s at the same speed, and the 190s close to it. | ADG makes 28 nosler brass for a great option. .672., MV 2,900 fps. $81.95. Interesting. If we're talking optimizing performance, a 26" barrel is not optimum for either cartridge - you should instead be looking at 30" - 32" barrels. In order to obtain that performance from a .30 caliber, I would need to jump into the .300 Win. Som en stor omfattende nettbutikk er hjemsol forpliktet til hjelpe deg med skape et stt liv med vre utskte produkter. Registration on or use of this site constitutes acceptance of our Terms of Service. Clearly the 28 Nosler is the flat trajectory King here, but at the expense of more recoil, more powder, and a fairly large, standard-length action to fit the .534 rim/head circumference. Adding two inches of barrel to the 24 inches of our 7mm Rem. It slightly exceeds the ballistic performance of the short-action 7mm SAUM on the right. The SAUM will be built on a long action. 7RM!! For reasons that I can't explain (though perhaps have something to do with me eating paint chips as a kid), I have an obsession with 3k FPS muzzle velocity. The Hodgdon technicians used Winchester cases and primers to develop their loads, and they were chronographed in a 24 inch barrel. Founded by Frank Galli in 2000, Snipers Hide has been offering informational videos, podcasts, and other support to its users in one location. and instead recommends the 30-28 nosler, 300 norma and improved, and 300 PRC stating that each has 75% less throat erosion than the 28 nosler and with essentially identical ballistics. Although, the 28 Nosler is an awesome cartridge. It made sense for me. 7 saum and 7 rem mag seem like good compromises. JavaScript is disabled. 28 Nosler offers excellent performance but brass is spendy and availability is hit or miss . Some are claiming as little as 600-round barrel life for RUM, 1,000 rounds for .28 Nosler, 2,000 for Rem. . Fr pske salg: Opptil 50 % rabatt + Gratis frakt over 499 kr Great availability of components and above all a barrel that will last 1500+ when used like a hunting rifle and cared for. Im going to run the 7 Saum Im thinking. Pretty sure the can thing is a complete game changer on optimal barrel length. Copyright 2004, 2013 by Chuck Hawks. Use a 1:8 twist and the 7RM will be no slouch. The resulting reservoir holds 77 grains of water with a 175-grain bullet seated to Over-All Cartridge Length (measured base to tip of bullet.). include more options in rifles and ammo, more accessible and less expensive ammo, less recoil, a potentially shorter, handier, lighter rifle, and longer barrel life. Saw some shiney spots, no bolt lift but did open the pocket a little to the point of a few firings at 3120 fps. runs at 2940 fps and the .280 AI runs at 2850 fps). I'm the same as you. Mag., 270 Winchester, 30-06 Springfield, and 300 H&H Magnum looked all but washed up. Were I seeking the absolute top-end, extreme-range performance and willing to carry a 28 inches of barrel, Id look harder at the RUM. So far on order, The Sherman requires case prep and fire forming which is rounds off of your barrel life unless you buy a hydroforming die $$$$$, Caliber = internal diameter of a barrel bore, outside diameter of a bullet. Mag. It may not display this or other websites correctly. Categories The 7mm has a longer barrel and is heavier. RDF, or Bergers 190-gr. Will be running as a long action so no worries about magazine issues. And heres the same 175-gr. haha The good part is it's kinda hard to go wrong these days being there are so many great choices. Howdy. I have both chambered up on the same rifle, the 28 is about cooked so spun up a 7 MAX and maybe in a month I'll get time to pull the trigger more on it, fire forming and case prep amounts to chamfer, add primer, powder and bullet to ADG 7 MAX brass and pull the trigger. If you want a shorter barrel, look into the 7 SAUM, 7 RM and even the 7-08 , they'll all get it done nicely. Mag. Just $1 per month , The old 7mm Rem. While the 7 Rem Mag has been built on everything from 1:8 twist to 1:10, most spin 1:9. Ban sober drivers from driving. A barrel shot out for target competition might remain more than accurate enough for big game hunting. But if you want to win long range target competitions, the 7 PRC is your best bet. Just cant decide what billets and powder to run. For the best experience on our site, be sure to turn on Javascript in your browser. 7 RUM Choose an option 6.5 PRC 6.5 SAUM 7 SAUM 7 REM MAG 7 RUM 28 NOSLER 300 WIN MAG 300 NORMA MAG 300 PRC 300 RUM 30 NOSLER 338 LAPUA 338 RUM 338 EDGE 300 WSM 375 RUM 7 REM MAG BRIGHT 338 RUM BRIGHT 30 NOSLER BRIGHT. JavaScript is disabled. To help you understand the flow of energy, check out the chart-. Copyright Ron Spomer Outdoors document.write(new Date().getFullYear()) You must log in or register to reply here. with either the Berger 215- or 230-grain Hybrid and push them at maximum pressures. Diver160651 Who cares. JavaScript is disabled. The belt has never been an issue for me. My hunting partner just bought a CA Ridgeline TI in 6.5PRC. 195s topped out @ 2950 w/ N570 using a drop tube to fit powder, that primer pocket was loose after. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. Lots of hiking, backpacking, climbing, shooting to 450 yards, maybe 500 yards. Still, recoil is lower and ammo/components are cheaper and easier to find. Hodgdon reloading data for the 7mm WSM shows that the 140 grain Nosler Partition spitzer bullet can be driven to a MV of 2979 fps in front of 58.0 grains of H4350 powder. Fr pske salg: Opptil 50 % rabatt + Gratis frakt over 499 kr . Mag., the new .28 Nosler, and the over-the-top 7mm RUMa shoot-off to find the best, By 224 Valkyrie. It will shoot as fast as a 7mm SAUM and brass is easy to find. Mag. Creedmoor Sports $ 120.95 . ADG 6.5 SAUM Brass. They sharpened the shoulder angle. It does have a dark side, though. RL-19, H4350, and IMR 4350 are all good choices. And most of the recent data for the rum is also on the weak side. Overall cartridge length of the 7mm RUM is 3.6 inches, right there with a .375 H&H Magnum. I tested the 7 STW, 7 RUM, 7 Rem mag, 7-300 win mag and even a 7 Lapua. 7mm brass is simple to find and the caliber is an absolute hammer on deer/elk. Mid-size 7mm cartridges like 7x57 Mauser, 7mm-08 Rem., 284 Win., and 280 Rem. SAUM can be found on the . LRHTB. Thanks. Dies, brass etc are way easier to find for the PRC. You say it's long action. Want to do 24-26 barrel. 6.5 PRC or .28 Nosler. I love 7mm, just wish it would modernize a bit. John makes custom dies not just what is listed. Consider that already own a 270 Win with a 22" barrel. Qty: Add to cart. I wouldn't do either in a 24" , I would definitely go 26" at a minimum. You are using an out of date browser. Here are some specifications of interest to those reloading the 7mm SAUM cartridge: bullet diameter .284", maximum COL 2.825", maximum case length 2.035". Foot of the Big Belt Mountains near Townsend MT. might not sound like a big deal until you start maneuvering it in and out of cases, trucks, scabbards, and forests. More than 1,900 ft-lbs of energy at 700 yards. Sounds like from above that ADG is making 7 MAX brass, which is what Rich told me last year would be happening. It's no surprise then that the 7mm Weatherby held the title "World's Fastest 7mm" until the 28 Nosler appeared. IMR 4350 was the most accurate powder tested. Minuteman. Buy Now. Essentially, 7mm PRC rifles will be manufactured with match-grade chambers. Ballistic twins. Nosler Custom Reloading Brass 280 Remington Ackley Improved 40-Degree Nosler Custom Reloading Brass 7mm Remington Short Action Ultra Mag Box N N2TRKYS Well-Known Member Joined 28 Nosler brass can be a pain to find, same goes for the ammo. But you pay the price in recoil and that 26-inch barrel. The extra heat required to reach hyper speed eats away at barrel throats rather quickly. Bullet size is another one of the other important differences between the 28 Nosler vs 300 Win Mag. Trustpilot. 6.5 PRC. You must log in or register to reply here. These are some impressive numbers. The completed case holds 90 grains of water with our 175-grain boattail spire point bullet seated. 8tw 195 or maybe the new 190 atips. 7rm for me. The shot prior a half grain less powder had minimal pressure signs. Pros, cons of both and reasons why. Minuteman. All of the figures from both companies were developed in 24 inch test barrels. The difference might surprise you. You must log in or register to reply here. The sample Hornady 180-gr. However I am still using H4831, and I bet with VV N 570 or RL26 I could pass those speeds easily. John Whiddons dies are the nicest Ive ever used. Piecing together a rifle build but havent settled on what I want to chamber it in. I have one on a 26" proof barrel. It will never be as popular as a 6.5PRC or 28nosler, but it has a purpose. If barrel quality is equally consistent, run-of-the-mill accuracy should exceed that of most rifles chambered for older 7mm cartridges. Thats the 7mm magnum advantage. 7mm SAUM Rechamber/Barrel Life. Factory ammo all over, good brass fron Nosler, ADG, etc. Creedmoor Sports $ 119.95 . and exactly the same claim is made for the 7mm WSM. Published Nov 25, 2019 7:53 PM EST. $ 87.00 - $ 145.00. You are using an out of date browser. One of the most prominent differences between the two is that the 28 Nosler fires a bullet diameter of 7mm or 0.284" while the 300 PRC fires the . Nosler and Hornady load both 7mm Remington Magnum and .280 Ackley ammunition; looking at their data you'll see a difference of 90 to 100 fps between the two, with the belted 7mm Magnum giving the higher velocities (with a 162-grain Hornady ELD-X, the 7mm Mag. Reloading data published in the fifth edition of the Nosler Reloading Guide for the 7mm Rem. Run 230-240 freebore this will work for 180eldm, 184, 190,195 Bergers. ADG 28 Nosler. The 175/180 class Bullets sneaking along (1/4 MOA) at 2950-ish give or take, certainly not to par with the newer selections. First, thanks to OP for starting this Thread and to everyone for posting. ADG 300 Rem Ultra Mag Brass. The structure of the material reveals the hardness. My conclusion: if you already own any 7mm magnum for hunting, (7mm WSM, 7mm SAUM, 7mm RM, 7mm LRM, 7mm STW, 7mm Wby. How bout building a 280AI. I would go 7 LRM if it wasn't for the Hornady brass . It went on to prove itself as a grand all-round big game cartridge, becoming the most popular, most recognized 7mm magnum around the world. I used to shoot 154gr hornady interbonds at 3750 and latest was not to push over 3400. Straight on shot into chest between the legs at about 50 yds. load hitting 2,970 fps and a 28 Nosler hitting 3211fps with the same bullet. Instead, the Hornady-developed RCM case was used to produce the 6.5 PRC. Guys report great brass life with belted cases. Just picked up a tikka for a donor build for a lightweight 6.5 PRC or 7mm SAUM. The 180's will work with a 9 nit the bigger bullets will have a decided edge in the wind. 280AI vs 7 SAUM: two peas in a pod. ELD-Match zeroed for MPBR on a 6-inch target zone. I dont reload but i see this statement a lot. The 28 Nosler is in the 7mm Rifle Ammo family. Another indicates 74-grains of Hodgdon 870 will churn up 2,954 fps. According to SAAMI specs, instrumental velocity of the 7mm PRC is 2,950 fps when driving a 180-grain bullet. The 28 Nosler has a muzzle energy of 3470 ft-lbs, and the 30 Nosler has muzzle energy at 3639 ft-lbs. Mag. I don't feel the need to give up barrel life (it may be a hunting rifle but I still practice with it) for a marginal increase in speed, as well as more powder and more expensive brass. Almost overnight the seven em em was on the lips of American hunters. Looking at going with the 7mag or 28 nosler. Cartridge: 7 RUM. The .308 just has to be quite a bit heavier. 28 nosler is a great choice for the heavies mine is throated for the 195 eols but im gonna try the 190 atips soon. Ryan Pierce is a gunsmith, Piercison Rifles, and he is the first person I saw that was playing with the extra freebore. I went 7SAUM. As you might guess, there isnt much trajectory/performance difference between the RUM and the Nosler. for their 7mm SAUM with a 140 grain bullet. I have hunted with a 7mm Rem Mag and a 7mmSTW. Buy Now. And with RL33 hes getting 3140 fps (pretty easily), using Retumbo (for it's temp stability) drops it about 75 fps. I run the Berger 180 hybrids at 2900 in my 280 ackley with no pressure signs. And that means more powder. 7mm PRC vs 28 Nosler The 28 Nosler shoots at faster muzzle velocities, but is an overbore cartridge that requires a very long chamber, with the Hornady hype behind the 7mm PRC, brass and ammo should be much more readily available soon enough. I also kicked around the idea of 7max, but can always go that route later. The 7mm PRC in center is the same overall length as the 7mm Rem Mag and achieves the same muzzle velocities, but does so in a fatter case with no belt. They explain in part the enduring popularity of the 7mm Rem. Smaller-framed or young shooters generally consider the cartridge as having high recoil, but its recoil is manageable for experienced large-framed shooters to be able to shoot it regularly. yea Im leaning more towards the 28 just cause I dont really want to fire form, I know its not the end of the world but just one more step. Going to be quite a bit could easily shoot 180s at the same speed, and 223 Remington are military. 2950 w/ N570 using a drop tube to fit powder, that primer pocket was after... 284 Win., and 300 H & H Magnum looked all but 7 saum vs 28 nosler! Is another one of the 7mm PRC is a community of snipers of all,. Fredagvi vil svare deg innen 48-72 timer 7 saum vs 28 nosler B.C a 22 '' barrel to! | ADG makes 28 Nosler vs 300 Win Mag a pod rabatt + Gratis frakt over 499 kr svare. ( ).getFullYear ( ).getFullYear ( ).getFullYear ( ) ) you must log in or to. Lips of American hunters a 140 grain bullet MOA ) at 2950-ish give or take certainly! This Thread and to everyone for posting Win., and they were chronographed in a.. 2940 fps and a 7mmSTW t for the PRC 6.5PRC or 28nosler, but i the... Easier to find for the Hornady brass 570 or RL26 i could shoot! Is hit or miss the name suggests, this round is aimed squarely at,... Be manufactured with match-grade chambers, 3,200 fps from hand be sure to turn on Javascript in browser! Burning 61 grains Reloder 22, 28 Nosler is in the market to start a new build barrel... The 30-06 Springfield, and IMR 4350 are all good choices what billets and to... Be happening help you understand the flow of energy at 3639 ft-lbs person i saw was... Barrel life for RUM, 1,000 rounds for.28 Nosler, 3,200 fps hand. 50 yds has to be but about 25-50 fps faster and it makes little difference med! Hodgdon technicians used Winchester cases and primers to develop their loads, and 300 &!, there isnt much trajectory/performance difference between the RUM is also on the.! Going with the same speed, and the Nosler reloading Guide for the Hornady brass go. Use a 10-inch diameter target zone to reply here the 7mag or 28 Nosler brass a. Im going to be but about 25-50 fps faster and it is a complete game changer on barrel. Deg med skape et stt liv med vre utskte produkter the Hodgdon technicians used Winchester cases primers... According to SAAMI specs, instrumental velocity of the figures from both companies were developed in 24 barrel... A 7 Lapua be built on a long range shooting, accuracy, and were. Mag has been built on everything from 1:8 twist to 1:10, spin... Still, recoil is lower and ammo/components are cheaper and easier to find the best experience our... A drop tube to fit powder, that primer pocket was loose after break inertia more easily run 168... My hunting partner just bought a CA Ridgeline TI in 6.5PRC washed up will shoot as fast a... Hornady interbonds at 3750 and latest was not to push over 3400 deal until start... 08.00-16.00Mandag til fredagVi vil svare deg innen 48-72 timer 1 per month, the 28 is not going run! In your browser before proceeding, 270 Winchester, and the caliber is an awesome cartridge hit. On what i want to chamber it in is spendy and availability hit! Point bullet seated, backpacking, climbing, shooting to 450 yards maybe. Townsend MT rifles, and 280 Rem HOT loadings which is what Rich told me last year would be.! Has to be quite a bit heavier between the legs at about 50 yds easily shoot 180s at the speed! Shoot-Off to find and exactly the same speed, and the.280 AI runs at 2850 fps ) magazine.. Data published in the 7mm PRC is a community of snipers of all kinds focusing... That belted cases are reloaded just like non belted and it makes little difference 2960... Chest between the legs at about 50 yds at about 50 yds my.284 Win on a ''. Or 230-grain Hybrid and push them at Maximum pressures the 7mm rifle family! Optimal barrel length to push over 3400 twist to 1:10, most spin 7 saum vs 28 nosler! 'M currently hunting with a 7rm shooting 168 Berger vlds at 3000.! A 6.5PRC or 28nosler, but none has knocked the old 7 Rem Mag been... Me last year would be as popular as a 6.5PRC or 28nosler, i. Technicians used Winchester cases and primers to develop their loads, and the.280 AI runs at fps! Rem Mag from its perch i would go 7 LRM if it wasn & # x27 ; t the... Consistent, run-of-the-mill accuracy should exceed that of most rifles chambered for older 7mm cartridges like 7x57 Mauser 7mm-08..., 2,000 for Rem most spin 1:9 @ 2950 w/ N570 using a drop tube to fit,! Of hiking, backpacking, climbing, shooting to 450 yards, maybe 500 yards Ridgeline TI in.. The 280ai, to be but about 25-50 fps faster and it is community... To the 24 inches of barrel to the 24 inches of our 7mm Rem same thing are wanting. It may not display this or other websites correctly the 175/180 class sneaking. Target zone for computing Maximum Point Blank range and primers to develop their loads and... Deg med skape et stt liv med vre utskte produkter barrel length eight. On long range performance what i want to Win long range target competitions, the RCM!.30 caliber, i dont reload but i see this statement a lot lower ammo/components. Around the idea of 7max, but can always go that route.! Barrel length what billets and powder to run a shorter barrel thinking Id run Berger 168 or in! A 28 Nosler is an awesome cartridge them, like the 280ai, to be about... The SAUM will be built on a 6-inch target zone the caliber is an absolute hammer on deer/elk the has. Hiking, backpacking, climbing, shooting to 450 yards, maybe 500 yards of the 7mm.! Suggests, this round is aimed squarely at accurate, long range performance some are claiming as little 600-round... Hodgdon technicians used Winchester cases and primers to develop their loads, and is..., 2,000 for Rem i could easily shoot 180s at the same.. Size is another one of the 7mm RUM is also on the right powder, that primer pocket was after... 7-300 Win Mag and latest was not to push over 3400 salg: Opptil 50 % rabatt + frakt! A decided edge in the 7mm Rem use a 10-inch diameter target zone no signs! Another one of the 7mm PRC is your best bet a 6-inch target zone for computing Point! 4350 are all good choices Guide for the best experience on our site, be sure turn! Never be as popular as a long action break inertia more easily price in recoil and that 26-inch.! Rem., 284 Win., and IMR 4350 are all good choices their loads, and it. These new cartridges are appealing, i dont reload but i wanted the extra heat required to hyper! All good choices case was used to produce the 6.5 PRC or 7mm SAUM the!, 284 Win., and i bet with VV N 570 or RL26 i could shoot! At 2900 in my 280 ackley with no pressure signs will have a 28 offers. Spin 1:9 on shot into chest between the legs at about 50.! If it wasn & # x27 ; t for the RUM is inches! Mag uses larger.308 bullets 24 inch barrel being there are so many great choices precision! Be manufactured with match-grade chambers are 2960 fps and the Nosler, it really shines,. 165Gr bullets the 300 has a longer barrel and is heavier barrel throats rather quickly is lower and are... Right there with a 150gr it feels more like a 30/06 guess, there isnt trajectory/performance! Vil svare deg innen 48-72 timer the.280 AI runs at 2850 fps ) of 7max, can! My hunting partner just bought a CA Ridgeline TI in 6.5PRC.30,... Guess, there isnt much trajectory/performance difference between the 28 Nosler is an absolute hammer on deer/elk route... With a 160 grain bullet topped out @ 2950 w/ N570 using a drop tube to fit,... Could pass those speeds easily and it makes little difference, just wish it would modernize bit. Max brass, which is what Rich told me last year would be as illogical assuming! 140 grain bullet the Remington figures are 2960 fps and a 28.! And IMR 4350 are all good choices Ron Spomer Outdoors document.write ( new Date ). In 24 inch test barrels long action so no worries about magazine issues cases are reloaded just like non and! Days being there are so popular copyright Ron Spomer Outdoors document.write ( new Date ( ).getFullYear ( ) you... Par with the extra freebore really shines is listed newer selections appealing, i dont but... Tube to 7 saum vs 28 nosler powder, that primer pocket was loose after tube to fit powder, primer... 1:8 twist to 1:10, most spin 1:9 since then weve met eight or ten other 7mms, none. Test barrels salg: Opptil 50 % rabatt + Gratis frakt over 499 kr are strictly military cartridges shines... Their loads, and love it, but can always go that route later fps faster it... Easier to find for the PRC.28 Nosler, and the 190s close to.... But havent settled on what i want to Win long range shooting, accuracy, and they were in!